In my post on 'Apologetics', Edward Oleander commented that he would like further details on what Darwinism shows about evolutionary changes in a cell. Let me start our discussion by re-posting a previous post (with a few additions) on Malaria:
What Does Malaria Teach Us About What Evolution Can Do?
Malaria is the million person Murderer; it kills 1 million people each year, and makes 100 million other people sick. In some regions, it kills half of all children before the reach the age of 5. It is like Dracula, feeding on blood. It is carried by mosquitoes, and transmitted when they bite. Once inside a person they keep feeding until they reach the liver, where they stop to multiply. It attaches to a red blood cell, goes inside puts a protective covering on and feeds on the hemoglobin. The infected blood cell gets stuck in our veins and stops circulating. Malaria reproduces until about 20 copies are made, they then break out of the now trashed red blood cell and re-enter the bloodstream to go into more red blood cells. They multiply exponentially, so that within a few days there are a trillion new malarial parasites, which consume a large portion of the victim's blood. Because they are so numerous, and it has been studied so much, it is the best example of what evolution can do.
The modern fight against malaria began in South America with the discovery that bark from the cinchona tree was useful for treating the fever. Quinine is developed from the cinchona bark, and once it was discovered in the 17th century that it could be used as a cure for malaria. But in the 1940's the active ingredient was isolated, and a compound developed called 'Chloroquine' that was even more effective against malaria. Because Chloroquine was effective, with few side effects and inexpensive to make it became the drug of choice for treatment of malaria for decades.
Malaria has 14 chromosomes, and the resistance part was recently discovered to be part of a 400,000 nucleotide region of one chromosome. It was further narrowed to 36,000 nucleotide region. The complexity of even a simple parasite like malaria is mind-blowing. The DNA for malaria encodes 5,300 proteins (proteins are essential to the operation of the cell, participating in every process of the cell. This includes being enzymes for metabolism, structural and mechanical functions – like forming the cell structure and building muscles, cell-signaling, immune responses and cell adhesion.) The PfCRT protein (for P. falciparum, a malaria species - Throughout my post when I use 'malaria', it is for P. falciparum) normally has 424 amino acids in a strict sequence. When there is a change in the amino acid sequence, the change commonly happens at position number 76 and 220 of the resistant proteins. These mutations are what have provided malaria's resistance to Chloroquine. This is what evolution can do in making an organism more resistant to an enemy like Chloroquine that is designed to destroy malaria.
So these two mutations at spot 76 and 220 of the amino acid sequence are what Darwinism can do – they provide resistance to the primary drug used to fight malaria; Chloroquine. Remember, that there are 1 trillion malaria cells in an infected person. And there are over 500 million people infected each year. Tom's Point: So with so many malaria cells (1 trillion in a sick person) and so many people infected with malaria (500 million each year), how often does a simple double protein "binding-site" mutation of the amino acid sequence happen to provide resistance to the top drug used to fight Chloroquine? One researcher has estimated that it has happened only 10 times over the past 50 years.
Resistance to Chloroquine has perhaps only appeared 10 times in the whole world in the past 50 years (!!!). And so, one writer estimates that if you count the number of malaria cells in a very sick person times the number of people who get malaria each year times the number of years since Chloroquine was introduced, we see that the odds of a parasite developing resistance to Chloroquine is roughly one in a hundred billion billion. Written in shorthand this is 1 in 10²⁰. This is why eminent geneticist Francois Jacob writes that Darwinian evolution is a "tinkerer" and not an engineer. I have made the claim that the evolution rates are many times too small to accomplish what Edward Oleander and other Darwinists claim. I make my argument based upon what we see in the studies of malaria, as well as other recent studies involving HIV/Aids and E-Coli.
If you would like the list of the studies relied upon by Prof. Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution, I can send them to you. This is a topic I have a genuine interest in, and so, if you have information that is helpful in expanding the discussion, please post it.
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"Resistance to Chloroquine has perhaps only appeared 10 times in the whole world in the past 50 years (!!!). And so, one writer estimates that if you count the number of malaria cells in a very sick person times the number of people who get malaria each year times the number of years since Chloroquine was introduced, we see that the odds of a parasite developing resistance to Chloroquine is roughly one in a hundred billion billion. Written in shorthand this is 1 in 10²⁰. This is why eminent geneticist Francois Jacob writes that Darwinian evolution is a "tinkerer" and not an engineer."
And this is why Behe and his ilk are fools and NOT scientists.
Your information is, quite simply, dead wrong. Resistance to Chloroquine is growing quite rapidly, leading to a resurgence of the use of quinine with concurrent tetracyclines in a number of hotspots around the world.
10 times in 50 years??? WTF? Really? Do you ONLY read what Behe tells you to, or do you actually ever Google anything on your own?
Here are two articles that took me 5 minutes to find, one of which discusses the evolution of current malarial strains. The other talks about Chloroquine resistance.
When you're done with those, please do some basic research into what divides organisms into different species. Behe totally ignores the differing criteria in differentiating strains, sub-species, and species. Perhaps because it changes as our knowledge increases, and perhaps because it might muddy up his nice neat (and often totally bulls***) way of creating statistical systems that look awfully impressive to those easily entranced by bright shiny numbers.
Malaria is actually a really bad example to use as a basis for judging all of evolution, because the success of it's mutations are often dependent on the concurrent mutations and adaptations of other creatures, like the mosquito vectors it needs to move from host to host. This is why REAL scientist use more complex, but short lived species like fruit flies to study evolution.
Behe sifts the truth for individual nuggets he can twist to seem to say what he wants. This is why he failed so dismally on the eye and the wing, because his science is, at it's base, UNSOUND. And this is why he is dismissed by most mainstream scientists.
you have said many times to keep an open mind and follow the evidence, yet you remain as firmly attached to your CONCLUSION as ever, and like Behe, will entertain only that which seems to support it. Try doing some non-Behe-based research of your own, from organizations that are peer-reviewed, and use accepted Scientific Method approaches to research.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+seeds+of+malaria:+recent+evolution+cultivated+a+deadly+scourge-a080393519
http://www.malariasite.com/MALARIA/DrugResistance.htm
Behe books DO have their uses, but only if you're out of Charmin...
:-)
~E~
ps: Blogger is suddenly only willing to email your responses to me gmail account, which i never use, so I won't automatically be notified if you respond... sigh...
Ed,
(on malaria's ability to develop resistance to chloroquine perhaps only 10 times over the past 50 years) - Your problem is not with me or Prof. Behe. You have a problem with what is shown in studies on evolution's ability to develop resistance to chloroquine - The studies were done not by Prof. Behe, but by N. J. White of Mahidol University in an article entitled 'Frequency of drug resistance in Plasmodium falciparum' published in Antimicrob. Agents Chemother., 40:914-19; also, 'Antimalarial drug resistance' Journal Clin. Invest. 113:1084-92 2004). Obviously, this is the conclusion of someone who has studied the issue a great deal than either of us.
I think you are missing the point. I have shown that Darwinism cannot make great changes in the gene of a cell, as you and other Darwinists claim. The mutation rate is far too small. And the evidence suggests something else besides random mutation + natural selection = new species is at work here. You have again failed to show anything that says that Evolution can change a squirrel into a kitty. The evidence is against you. /s/Tom
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