Thursday, February 5, 2009

Response to Edward Oleander;

My friend, Ed;


 

Allow this post to serve as my initial response to your comment made this past December 26th when you stated:

"To whom does God confess His sins? Where does He seek redemption? … When will He ever live up to the demands he places on us?" (Edward Oleander, Comment on the Wolff Blog).


 

Let me say that I do understand your frustration with those people like me who can so confidently say that there is a God, when tragedies like starvation, malnutrition and disease are so common. I believe it is author Fyodor Dostoyevsky ('Crime and Punishment' and 'The Brothers Karamazov')who being a believer still said the "death of a single infant calls into question the existence of God." Yet I see something as natural as the birth of a child as something so amazing, as to call into question a god-less world. You may know that Peggy and I were not able for a long time to have to children. We suffered through many miscarriages, and yes, I purposely said "we". It seemed that by the natural world for whatever reason, Peggy and I were unable to have children. During this time of our marriage, I went through many questions about God as I read the Bible: How could God not let Peggy have children (she was someone who knew that she had to be in a marriage with children)? Was I doing something in my life where God was teaching me through the miscarriages (it was this point in my life that I started my battle with pornography)? And through this dark time in our lives, it drove me to the Bible and prayer, yet we still didn't have children. So I remember what life's tragedies can do to raise questions about God.

But I don't think your statement is raised as an honest attempt to ask questions in an effort to find out more about the nature of God and God's Creation, or the nature of our universe. I thought I would start by using our gaming experience that we have together, and try and show how you have entered new and much more chilling territory with what you have just said. When we game together we push to get more experience, and thereby have tougher characters. This allows us to become more independent, and have a greater impact on the fantasy world that we game together in. From my past history in both being agnostic about God for a large period of my life, and from the time I have spent talking about Jesus with people (like you) who have rejected the necessity of Jesus, let me ask you to consider there being three (3) levels of Atheism:


 

  1. Self-Centered. This is the opening position where most people live. This is where I was when we first started gaming together. You remember, don't you? We loved making schemes to make our characters tougher, yet hurt the other characters, making the others weaker. I was called "Mr. Instigator", because I did things like make a comment that I knew would enrage Dino or Mike, even causing physical fights in your parents' home kitchen. I enjoyed causing trouble, and the conflict that it caused with others. At this level, God is irrelevant and instead the person's individual desires and drives are what life is built upon;
  2. Self Righteous. The next higher level is for those who are religion teachers and intellectuals. This is the group that Jesus was most likely to become angry against, as shown in the Gospels. Let me describe it through the religious group during 1st century Israel known as 'Pharisees'. The Pharisees were known to be scrupulously religious. And they did things like tithe to God, they did not do work on the Sabbath, and they followed many extra-Biblical religious rituals.

    So why did Jesus pick on this group of especially observant Jews to vent His wrath? He called them such names as "unmarked graves" (which make people "unclean" if they go near- Luke 11:44), hypocrites (Matt.23:13-19), and even that they were blind (Matt. 15:12-14). But the worst insult Jesus hurled at the Pharisees is that they were vipers (Matt. 12:34; meaning that they were small snakes, like their spiritual father Satan, the Serpent), and along the same line, they were children of Satan (John 8:44). So why was Jesus so vehement against those who kept the Jewish tradition, and observed the Jewish Laws with single-minded focus?

    My take on this question is that there were two things that made Jesus so angry with the Pharisees: First, they clearly were hypocrites. The Pharisees had an outward appearance of being religious and upright members of society. But as Jesus said, they were like clean cups looking clean on the outside but inside the Pharisees' cup is filled with greed and envy (Luke 11:39-40). While everyone is to some extent a hypocrite (who would like a video tape of their past week's worst moments shown on CNN?), the Pharisees drew such harsh criticism because they thought they were sooooo good and nice. They thought they were living the lives God wanted them to. Yet they forgot the weightier matters of justice for the poor, and mercy to all. And so, it is the Pharisees that the great Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) is directed against. To all who are reading this post is there anyone who could make a charge against you where you have failed to show kindness or mercy to them, and as a result they were hurt? Other people being hurt by a person's action or inaction is what made Jesus so angry against the Pharisees, and is why God sent the world His Son, as the world's Savior.

    The second reason why I think Jesus was especially sharp with the Pharisees is because of God's great love of the Jews, God's chosen people. Because the Pharisees were the leaders and teachers of God's Law to the Jews, they had a special responsibility to faithfully act in their office as priests and teachers. Instead of faithfully teaching the people in Israel though, the Pharisees instead were more concerned with receiving recognition from other people, and with rules, instead of directing the Jewish people to faith in God. And so, we see from Jesus' attacks the Pharisees an important principle: Don't mess with God's chosen people;

    OK, let me add one more reason why Jesus attacked the Pharisees – because they rejected God's own Son, and what He taught. Anyone who rejects Jesus' words and teachings is considered wicked by God. (Matt. 12:45 and 16:4). And if someone rejects Jesus, then they have likewise rejected God (John 14:9).

  3. The Angry Atheist. This is a growing field as shown by the popularity of such books written by super-evolutionist Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, Sam Harris' The End of Faith, and Christopher Hitchens' God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. The tone of this new atheist is different from previous non-believers in one important way – they seek to spread their views. In other words, they are evangelists (so to speak) of their new Atheism, and they think that by spreading their ideas they will somehow help the world. They are angry at God, and at the people who follow God, and they want the world to know about it. This is where you your most recent comment about God having sinned has now placed you. Congratulations, you have reached a new "level" of blasphemy against God. This is not an achievement that anyone should desire.

    Now, I know you well you enough that you may have just been posturing. Perhaps you were trying to 'instigate' a reaction, throwing a hand grenade on my blog to provoke a response. Remember though every day you are making a choice – every day you choose to speak to the unseen God through prayer. Every day you could read the New Testament Gospels, and see for yourself what is really said about Jesus. And after all of your days are completed, then you have to die. Your life is ultimately a ballot for God or against God. And with your lips and writings you are revealing how your ballot is being cast. I hope you feel that you are open-minded enough to be persuaded of truth if it is shown to you.

Before you write a lengthy volume on your thoughts that are raised by this post, I hope you will take a moment and first answer these questions. Don't worry; I will give you ample opportunity to full express your opinions. But let's start if you will with direct responses to some questions I have for you. This is only the first of several posts I hope to write to you on this topic. So if you would please briefly answer the following questions -

Questions for Edward Oleander:

  1. Do you want there to be a God?
  2. Do you feel that you could be judged by God and justly punished for what you have done and left undone in this life, if you were to appear before God on Judgment Day?
  3. What's your definition of an 'atheist'?
  4. Did you try another god?
  5. If there is a 'God', how would God's personality and characteristics be different than that of Jesus?

Thanks for your Comments and ideas that you provide when you visit my blog. May God bless you with a more clear understanding of His nature, and of your nature. In Jesus' name, Amen.

3 comments:

Anonymous said...

First of all... Thank you! Now that I had a chance to read it carefully, I appreciate the amount of thought you put into your post, even if I disagree with your conclusions regarding me.

My frustrations with the inconsistencies and (to my mind) hypocrisy of the Bible have focused my thoughts into the meme I've been working on for the past couple years, that of Christianity as myth. It is so consistent with the theories of myth-formation, and both the process and flow of good storytelling, that it seems to be best way to interpret the Bible.

Placing me in the "Angry Atheist" category is only partially correct. My comments about God's ethics, while written on a "hand grenade" and then tossed at your blog, WERE legit, in that I really do believe God, if he exists, has a lot of explaining to do. I don't LIKE his personal ethics, and I challenge he or his agents (that being you or your other readers!) to justify them. Incidentally, I think "blasphemy" is a human creation designed to suppress critical thinking and to keep from having to provide answers to uncomfortable questions (see last question below).

Most of me is still happily in the 1st category, but in a vastly different light than the negative one you project into it. James Rachels proved we don't need God to provide ethical guidance for ourselves. We can do it, although not enough people ever bother.

Okay... before this goes on too long, I'll answer your questions.

Questions for Edward Oleander:
Do you want there to be a God?

Yes... but not yours.

Do you feel that you could be judged by God and justly punished for what you have done and left undone in this life, if you were to appear before God on Judgment Day?

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. If your God exists as the Bible paints him, then I most certainly WILL be judged, and harshly. But from my point of view, he has no RIGHT to do so. By my understanding of "sin" and "just punishment" within the Christian religion, he would be throwing stones from a glass house.

Ask me in a future post why God would be considered Chaotic Evil in our gaming universes...

What's your definition of an 'atheist'?

That term is used too loosely by believers. I am not an atheist, because atheism is not a process, but a conclusion. It can be "proven" only by indirect assault on the "evidence" for religion. You know from our debate on Evolution that I despise the "If not X, then Y" logic train that ignores possibilities A thru W... Atheism is religious in structure, because it makes unprovable conclusions out to be facts.

Just because all the religions I've ever encountered are based on myth, superstition and wishful thinking, doesn't mean there isn't some Truth out there somewhere.

Did you try another god?

I currently have a very fragile, weak, and unfocused belief (more of a DESIRE to believe) in the Pagan, nature-based, Earth Mother (Gaian) systems. I talk to Her slightly more often than to your own God, and in a much nicer tone.

I cannot quite rid myself of the nagging possibility that if one god exists, they all do, but right now I only talk to the two above...

If there is a 'God', how would God's personality and characteristics be different than that of Jesus?

I believe in the pursuit of ethical perfection, but not it's attainment. Therefore God must as self-questioning as we all should be. S/he should be striving for self-betterment. S/he would laugh at the very concept of blasphemy, as that kind of thinking is not only to be tolerated, but encouraged and responded to by an ethical deity.

A good definition of "perfect" has eluded us for thousands of years. Jesus comes closer than God, but still has too many of his father's neuroses. Buddha comes even closer, as he represents a lot of the ethical teachings of Jesus without the Judeo/Christian religious trappings. Even Buddhism has been complicated and weighed down with dogma to the point of no longer being relevant though.

That perhaps hits on what would make up the perfect religion. Simplicity. The simpler the better, and more likely true. Paganism comes closest here.

Complications lead to contradictions and a lack of clarity that are hallmarks of mythology. Making a deity out to be all-loving, all-god-yet-all-human, and all-knowing, and then trying to rewrite history to make the story work, pretty much dooms the Christian religion from a simplicity standpoint. I won't even mention what calling Christianity "monotheistic" does to my confidence level...

tom wolff said...

Edward Oleander writes: "... I really do believe God, if he exists, has a lot of explaining to do. I don't LIKE his personal ethics, and I challenge he or his agents (that being you or your other readers!) to justify them."

Ed, thank you for your clear cogent response to the initial post. But let's get the elephant in the room on the table and discussed. Please provide what you see as the three WORST examples of God's ethical lapses.

I think this will help all of us better understand what you are saying, if we can have some examples. Thanks again.

Edward Oleander said...

Good idea... maybe let's even take it a step further...

Before I got my list of three together, I realized that most of his "lapses" were part of greater wholes. Working backward, I have 3 items, but they are HUGE categories. Maybe deal with each separately?

I'm using my Blogger account now, so I should get reply notifications by email now... Should have done this a long time ago...

#1) Arrogance. God demands humility from us, but can wipe out whole societies when his own pride gets wounded. Honestly, his ego puts Dino's early days to shame. He makes up rules that don't even make sense (e.g. Don't eat shellfish), just to have something to punish you for. And yes, that still counts, even today.

The biggest issue here is that God thinks that just because he created the universe, it's his to play with, no matter the price paid by living beings. Examples are the Flood, and the killing of the first-born of Egypt.

#2) Cruelty. It's one thing when scientists STUDY the suffering that occurs in nature, and do not intervene, but God built it right into the system.

Biggest examples here are the very existence of carnivores, from mosquitoes to lions. Encouraging Joshua and the Jews to slaughter entire civilizations in the conquest of Canaan was NOT an ethical high-point for God. Neither was childhood bone cancer.

#3) Selfishness. God takes all credit for Good, and accepts no blame for Evil. Half the Ten Commandants attest to his greed. Not for money, but for our adoration. If a soul is truly eternal, then respect, adoration, and worship MUST be the most valuable coins in the universe, and God wants it all.
=========================

Okay... That scratches the surface... I'm not sure all of God's "lapses" can be shoved into just three categories, but it's a place to start. Many of his problems violate more than one of the above.

Perhaps in return, you might now list the three MOST ETHICAL things God has ever done?

"Ethics is not what you do when you hold the cards, ethics is what you do when you hold the gun."
~Anon~

Pax,
~E~